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Dominant - Q&A Part Two (Patreon)

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2022-10-18 06:00:04
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Content

Martyn is joined by John this week to answer the rest of your massive collection of questions. If you listen closely, there are a couple of things that they agree on. Almost.

Dominant returns next Tuesday as the boys pick up the story in that busy summer of 1995. 

Thanks for your support as always.

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Comments

Callum Dinnen

This Derek Ferguson chat is what I wanted when I asked my Souness XI question 🤣

Graham McCallum

Can John turn his mic up please. I find it very difficult to hear everything he says

Callum Dinnen

@Martyn I understand entirely your point of view regarding Duncan Ferguson (and with the benefit of hindsight agree with it), but I can't help but feel in an alternative universe where we let him go south in the summer of 1993, when it comes to this project and a couple of the questions around signings and Scottish players, he would be the screamingly obvious answer to the 'are there any Scottish players we should have signed that we didn't?' questions that have come up.

James Curran

Martyn, I don't agree that Duncan Ferguson’s long-term potential is a myth. At the time Rangers players weren't short on the controversy on & off the pitch. In that regard he was hardly the exception to that dressing room. We needed good Scottish players because of the three-foreigner rule. Being managed correctly and taken out of the goldfish bowl for a season or two may have been the best result for the club long term. Look at all the money we wasted on strikers after Hateley goes! Salenko, Anderson & Van Vossen all bought and we kept going back to McCoist (when fit) & Durie

Jamie Carr

Smith should of signed Chris Waddell instead of Dale Gordon but he didn’t know he was available. What a signing he would of been and by his own account he wanted to come.

john cowden
>>93814247

I agree James. You look at the stats from 94-98, and Ferguson isnt too shabby. Certainly better than an ageing Hately. We also get our money back on him, despite all controversy. Bottom line at a time we need scottish players he is the stand out young scottish striker.

Martyn Ramsay
>>93814247

Ferguson is an Everton cult hero who didn’t get remotely close to realising his potential because of his personality. Smith was one of the best man-managers in the business and admitted that he couldn’t get close to him in order to make a difference. This isn’t one of those ‘if only we had signed him’ questions that we often ponder. We did sign him and it didn’t work. All the arguments seem to assume that he is an entirely different person than he actually was. That’s why it’s a myth.

Martyn Ramsay
>>93814378

Waddle had his swan song at Wednesday but I think Smith needed and wanted an engine on the right and Gordon was fine for us in that respect. Loved Waddle but ideally he would come a few years earlier.

Jamie Carr
>>93814378

Waddle was levels above Gordon and I think we’d of been the perfect match. He won the Football Writers POTY for Weds. One that got away. Maybe not as much as Jardel but not far off.

David Herd

The topic of Scots we could have maybe signed. In hindsight, I'd probably have regretted it if it had happened. But I remember when we signed Graham Roberts, I was wanting us to have gone for Craig Levein instead as I thought him and Butcher would have been a brilliant partnership. Given his subsequent injuries, and the arrival of Gough, maybe better my wish didn't get granted.

James Curran
>>93814247

Ferguson not reaching his overall potential or Smith not being able connect to him on a personal level, doesn't mean that he couldn't have led the line for Rangers in that period. The lack of personal relationship didn't stop Smith from selecting him for Everton. Durie for example was a solid EPL striker with 70 goals to his name from 1986 to 1994. He was more than competent in Scotland with cup final and European goals to his name.

Mark McRobie

Pedant alert but stop using the terms "fiscal" and "fiscally"; fiscal and related terms mean government spending or spending of public money. 😬

David Herd

Really interesting debate on the merits of Gough v Butcher, DJ v Hateley. And of "first loves". My old man didn't have any of the 4 of them in his all-time Rangers team, nor Davie Cooper. But he did have Woodburn, Waddell and Thornton. I wonder what team was his first love!

James Curran
>>93814247

Completely agree John. In my opinion, retaining Ferguson would have had more positives than negatives over that period

Martyn Ramsay
>>93814247

People talk about Ferguson as if it was one that got away. We know first hand what happened! It wasn’t a good fit. At a struggling Everton with little expectation, it worked very well. He took to that loan spell so well. Now should Rangers have demanded him back is maybe a better question but they knew there was a fair chance he was going to jail so understandably cut it short. The key issue in the Ferguson story is the reality of the summer of 1993. We know two things: he was not emotionally ready to be a high-profile, record breaking Rangers player and secondly, there wasn’t a chance in hell that Hateley was being sold that summer. None. Which ensured a difficult season getting frustrated which led the club to wash their hands when the time came. I’ve said if United had sold him in 1994, it could well have been different but that’s not the reality we have to deal with in these discussions.

Martyn Ramsay
>>93814378

In terms of skill, a far better player but I’m still not sure that’s what Smith was looking for at the time. He wanted a working player out there and was unlikely to go with two wingers at the same time. Also, 91-93 worked out quite well so I’m also not sure what we missed out on. The timing of Jardel on the other hand…

Martyn Ramsay
>>93816332

Really? I’ve never heard of any fan from that era being anything other than delighted with the Roberts signing. Yeah it probably worked out well in the end!

Niall MacKay

(pronounced Neil) Kuznetsov is mainly the reason I asked the question. He was instrumental in the USSR getting to the final of the Euros, he was part of that Dynamo Kiev team... I just wondered if you felt that we'd have been elevated by him being there. Given how we used Miko, I wonder if we'd have utilised him properly regardless.

Martyn Ramsay
>>93817453

I’d have more optimism about Souness using Oleg properly than Smith’s use of Miko. It would have been great to see but, as we’ve discussed on the show, be careful about seeing it as the magic solution. We needed 5/6 technical players to compete properly.

Ben

I’d pick Derek Ferguson away to a Hamilton on a wet Tuesday night in November on a bog, every other time I’d pick Trevor Steven.

Callum Dinnen
>>93816719

The first love thing is really interesting because the 9 in a row team is my first love. If Martyn is a child of Souness, with 86/87 being his first memory, I'm a child of Smith as the first season I remember is 91/92. But in terms of my greatest XI, I only have Laudrup and McCoist as 'first loves' who make it. By contrast, I have 6 from the Advocaat/McLeish era of 98-03 (granted, that includes Amo and Albertz, but I associate them with Dick more than I do Walter), but I think a lot of that is to do with the football in Advocaat's first 2 years and actually gaining respectability in Europe vs Smith.

Martyn Ramsay
>>93817453

Oh that’s a good question. In Europe I presume you mean. Souness would correctly point to the fact that his side wasn’t eliminated by a bad team. Smith can’t point to that and could and should certainly have done better. I just think the rules limited that more than we gave credit for at the time.

James Curran
>>93814247

Those are all very good points. In life timing is everything. To me, this signing highlights one of the biggest problems in this period. Yes Hateley wasn't going to be sold after the 92/93 season. But surely Ferguson should have been made aware that he was the long-term successor for the role. I just look at the money we spent after this signing on players and in general it was a short-term gain quick wins. We had the replacement signed and never managed him or his expectations correctly on his role for the short term.

Martyn Ramsay
>>93814247

Sorry to repeat this but this is the big misunderstanding about the whole thing. Of course he was told that but he wouldn’t accept it. He was the most expensive player in Britain, he told a bus full of new teammates who had just missed out on a CL final and won a treble that he was there to take them to a new level. Not in a few years but now. Again, it’s wishing/assuming that Ferguson was a totally different person than he was. He wasn’t prepared to be an apprentice and nor was Hateley prepared to be a teacher for one season. The two men couldn’t cope with those roles, it should have been foreseen and I will die on the hill that Rangers should have gone for McLaren and Durie that summer for less money. Ferguson in 1993 was simply not ready to lead the line for Rangers and that’s when we felt we had to buy him. How badly we spent in that area in years to come doesn’t change the fact that having both around that season was a disaster waiting to happen.

James Curran
>>93814247

I wasn't aware that he was told he was the long term replacement. That does change my position in terms how we recruited the player and managed expectations. Regardless of signing Ferguson, we should have recruited Durie & Mclaren a season earlier.

john cowden
>>93814247

so we agree having both around was a disaster waiting to happen, and that we should sign McLaren and Durie. Ultimately James is right, Hately is short term, Ferguson is long term potential. I choose the latter and in a season where Motherwell are our closest contenders, the smart move is to have Ferguson develop his skills further as leader of the line supported by a treble wining team plus McLaren and Durie (who should have been signed for the champions league the previous season). I dont think you are dying on that hill, just residing in an Egyptian river. PS having Ferguson not Hately in Europe frees up a 'foreigner' slot. another plus.

Niall MacKay
>>93817453

Europe and domestically, I guess. Europe mainly. Given our dominance in the era, one treble is arguably not good enough. Our European performances maybe explained why we didn't win more, I guess. We just assumed we were better and would win? Sometimes that worked, it mostly did in Scotland.

Martyn Ramsay
>>93814247

Oh I’m not the one in denial about what was realistic and possible in 1993 😁 This is the difference between hindsight fantasy and historical analysis. Hateley being punted in that summer simply isn’t on the table so the post-hoc argument about giving an immature kid that responsibility isn’t an actual option at the time. All historical discussion has to be based in the reality of the options available to those making decisions. That straight swap wasn’t one of them

James Curran
>>93814247

I feel like I'm repeating myself now. I never expected Hateley to be sold after that season. Ferguson being bought for a record amount having faith and confidence in his own ability is not a bad thing. Yes, he shouldn't be telling the whole bus he's here to lift the team to the next level. But lots of young men who get that level of success early in life come with an ego to match. I don't think it's beyond the realms of possibility to arrange a loan for a season or two to allow him to play once it's established in the short term that he isn't going to move Hateley from the team.

Martyn Ramsay
>>93817453

Yeah I don’t disagree. I’ve made the argument that there could well be a turning point re style/approach with the Wilkins replacement. Souness bottled a technical revolution and Smith inherited a domestic pressure. Complacency and a lack of necessity explains much of the under par domestic return post-1993

Martyn Ramsay
>>93814247

Sorry James, that’s John’s belief I was responding to, not yours! I think you’re looking at the loan option with modern eyes. We are not breaking the transfer record in 1993 and not seeing that player for one or two years. That’s just not a thing then.

James Curran
>>93814247

No problem Martyn. Yeah, I’m looking at this situation with a modern take and you are correct I can't remember players being purchased and then loaned in the’90s pre-transfer windows. I'm not getting involved in an H&H domestic 😂

john cowden
>>93814247

Go on get involved ! In all seriousness I think the major difference is a generational one. This (dominant) era is unique in that we are buying almost exclusively finished articles. I was more used to youth and work in progress being developed . So I do tend to go for potential over players with a limited shelf life. Don’t think anyone needs to worry about my philosophy as the chances of me being the Rangers manager is less than zero…

Gregg

Re the ‘dream team’ - could you have played walters on the right and cooper on the left? Loved Steven btw

David Herd
>>93816332

Maybe didn't phrase my initial comment very well there Martyn. I meant I was wanting Levein as Butcher's partner before we signed Roberts. Once Graham arrived, like everyone else I thought he was brilliant. I was just meaning back in 1986 I thought there was a Scottish player absolutely perfect for our team, at the time I actually viewed him as a better centre back than Gough.

David Herd
>>93816719

No Gazza? I thought absolutely everyone who lived through the 90s had him and Laudrup in their greatest eleven!

Douglas Innes

Never understood the " develope our own talent " given the time of this pod there was only Durrant Ferguson Robert Fleck and Dave McPherson who we can claim as coached from youth ( all in place before Souness) and scince then Alan McGregor Alan Hutton and Nathan Patterson and not much else ....... Rangers as a Rule don't really promote youth , I find it unbelievable that since Robert Flecks time Rangers haven't had a striker that has came through the ranks and made it within the club then onto international level

Martyn Ramsay
>>93816332

Makes more sense! He was a decent player from what I can recall. Wallace wanted to buy Levein, Durie and Brown in the summer of 86. All promising young Scottish talent but I think further evidence that we needed a revolution

john cowden
>>93831011

Hands up , From my perspective the 70’s team I grew up was developing our own. (As indeed was the teams of my father and grandfathers ) So I’m biased and perhaps a little naive. However given where we are today, I think we do have to develop our own. I also don’t think our heart was into developing our own from souness onwards. Not even when we were in the lower leagues .

Douglas Innes
>>93831011

I agree In regards our heart wasn't into developing talent and haven't been since the late 70s early 80s , I can't see a scenario where we get to that 4 or 5 of our 1st team regulars have came through the ranks ... Ps , the lower league wouldve been the perfect time to promote youth and tell up and coming youth talents " come to Rangers you will get to play as we progress through the leagues " ... still never happened

Leslie Hibbert

Good stuff thanks for taking the time for it. Think it's great how you can take the questions and run with them

john cowden
>>93831011

I agree it’s unlikely to get 4-5 coming through and if you do, keeping them, given money down south. However, the reality the level of ‘finished article’ we can afford won’t be at the level we need or want , unless they come with ‘baggage’. Therefore I think we have to give it a go, even a couple of starters makes a difference, this will require a shift in mentality throughout the club and our fans.

Andrew Lees

Fantastic series of shows and really good questions and points raised. 3 things that stood out for me; Durrant, 3 foreigner rule and filling in the corners While Durrant was a fantastic talent and had the potential to play in Serie A, I don't think he had the mentality or ambition to do so and I say that as a huge fan. British players going abroad was not a particularly successful thing. Most managed one or two seasons at most, with very few exceptions in this era. More likely, Durrant goes South or has one year abroad and returns like Trevor Steven. Given our current champions League experience and the very obvious elite of 8-10 teams from the countries with biggest TV audiences, I wonder if the 3 foreigner rule (albeit illegal) if it still existed today, would have made our team more competitive against all of these teams who have built success on the back of Sky, oil, oligarch money? I remember Serie A had a similar rule in place with the aim of protecting the production of domestic players. Perhaps the rules we have now regarding number of home grown players who have come via our own development is a minor attempt to address this. On the 3 corners, I think the argument was that we had hit a plateau in terms of demand. Lot of games with empty seats (see TV evidence of the time) for run of mill league games and overpriced CL games. Nowadays, it's a different argument and as Martyn rightly points out, the drop in TV money in real terms wasn't considered in the mid 90s. Sorry for the ramble. Best thing on the network at the moment and that bar is high. Thanks

Scott Christian

Great show chaps, as was last week’s too. Good to hear the varied opinions. The Butcher:Gough chat- now I would consider Gough to be my man, what a legend, but I’m not having he was better than Butcher. He had a lot of howlers in him- it’s not coincidence that many images of Gough are last ditch challenges to prevent a goal scoring chance, whereas these are almost non-existent with Butcher. His reading of the game, his positional sense, his awareness, his range of accurate passing all at least one level above Gough, who was probably only equal in the air (IMHO). The jumbotron screens; we were all pretty excited about that as I recall. I went to 2 beambacks (hearts on last day 97 & tims away 5-1 😩😩- and imagine that where you’ve got 60k across at the piggery and 25k at Ibrox at the same time) and it was packed out. As a long term investment it made sense; the capital outlay of filling in the entire corner with seats would have been astronomical. The roof would have to come off the 3 stands and the whole structure reconfigured to cantilever support (like the Main Stand) from the portal (goalpost) structure that currently hold up those roofs where the posts are behind the screens. If you look at the top of the roof structures now you see a lateral section that stands proud clad in black; this is the where the crossbeam sits. That would mean playing somewhere else whilst the work was done too, so I don’t think it was a bad decision with the information they had at the time re being able to bring home revenue every time the team was away. I would agree that the lack of a bespoke training centre would be the biggest mistake in this period. You wonder how many players came and saw Ibrox and then up to Cameron House and thought this is the biz, signed on the dotted line then turned up for training only to be stuck on a bus IN YOUR KIT to a public park across the river! And to think we had the cheek to slag off Barrowfield!! Never mind the Ferguson discussion; you’ve alluded to the real striker that got away that would have been the biggest game changer… And yes, thank you for that reminder to us spoilt kids that winning titles was indeed fun!!

Douglas Innes
>>93831011

We've a much better chance picking off EPL 3rd and 4th choice players, selling them Ibrox and European football highlighting Bassey and Aribo as an avenue onto a higher level

john cowden
>>93831011

I think it’s probably the same chance and no reason you cannot do both . I can throw it Patterson and gilmour to counter aribo and bassey, albeit we got minimal from gilmour . As I say probably best to pursue both

Gary Brown
>>93813865

Duncan Ferguson is the epitome of 'stupid boy', he was the architect of his own downfall at Rangers. Very talented but equally egotistical. Yes he was completely 'done over' by both his fellow pro and in turn the authorities re the headbutt however if it hadn't been that, it would have been something else - horror tackles on or made by, confrontations on the pitch, or in the street or with team mates.

Gary Brown

Thanks Martyn & John for this show, great to hear your views and opinions on the questions raised. These Q&A shows gave been a nice supplement to the series. Thanks for answering my somewhat personal question Martyn. It was very interesting to hear. I certainly wasn't expecting tabloid tell tales!

Callum Dinnen
>>93816719

No Gascoigne is the big controversial call from my all time XI. This isn't me being contrary for the sake of it; I loved Gazza. I queued to see him when he signed, and his hat-trick against Aberdeen to win 8 in a row was on my 11th birthday. But he loses out to Albertz in my all time XI.

Callum Dinnen

On the big right midfielder controversy when you were debating John's love of Derek Ferguson vs Trevor Steven, in 86/87 when Ferguson, Durrant, Souness and Cooper played together, who would the (nominal) right midfielder have been?

Callum Dinnen

In hindsight (ultimate counterfactual history scenario alert) it sounds like the ideal scenario for the Rangers Revolution would have been no foreigner rule, and bring in a continental coach like Advocaat around 1990 to replace the Best of British revolution Souness brought in 1986 with a more continental outlook.

Martyn Ramsay
>>93964651

Yeah that’s what I’ve argued would have been the dream second revolution. We could and should have done better but ultimately that constraint reduced it to a fantasy.

Martyn Ramsay
>>93964248

Nominally Ferguson when that midfield played together. No-one would hug that touchline like Cooper so it was be more narrow on the right and sometimes Cooper would float over there too.

john cowden
>>93964248

We agree on something Martyn ! Not even sure Trevor hugged the touchline a la Cooper or Walters .

Alan McQueen

Totally agree with the question about the giant screens. Very much a missed opportunity. Where I sit in the Govan front back row you can’t see them. Too many parts of the ground you’re hidden from them. I’m sure I seen a model around the time of 94 that the corners were to be filled in with seats. But did it not change to screens instead when the engineering works meant that seats weren’t possible?

Craig Robertson

Thanks a lot for answering the questions. Great show

Ross Baird

Great show as always guys. Would have no problem with Robertson or Numan in any Rangers 11 of mine. So got to disagree with John’s opinion on Left Backs we’ve had at club!

Andrew Meldrum

Good and interesting as always. On the question about the decision would change for Souness, Smith etc, the Souness conversation focused on players he could have signed. The decision I would change would be to hold onto Fleck for a few months and tell Norwich to wait. Easy with hindsight, but we ended up with no fit strikers two months later.

Martyn Ramsay
>>94133447

We covered this a lot on the show for that period. It wasn’t a football decision. Fleck wanted to leave Glasgow and that was that.