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It's summer, and last week, both Moira and Adrian have found themselves near pools. So they recorded an episode about swimming pools and conservatism, one that turned out quite a big meatier than that topic might suggest. Immigration, race, gendered violence, public goods, civil rights ... the Supreme Court! Leave it to your friends at In Bed with the Right to turn splashing into some cold water on a hot summer day into ... a bit of a bummer.

Here's a list of the sources we refer to in the episode:

-- Thomas A. P. van Leeuwen, The Springboard in the Pond: An Intimate History of the Swimming Pool (1998)

-- Jeff Wiltse, Contested Waters: A Social History of Swimming Pools in America (2007)

-- Heather McGhee, The Sum of Us: What Racism Costs Everyone and How We Can Prosper Together (2021)

-- Our friends at 5-4 did an amazing episode on the SCOTUS case Palmer v Thompson, which, if you haven't heard it yet, you can listen to here.

Comments

WGM

I really appreciated Moira's discussion of the seen/survailed/assessed difficulty of pools. also a debilitating feature of gyms and bars imo.

Chris Lutsko

I know this is a podcast focusing more on gender, however I'm a little surprised that there's a whole episode about pools and policing people's bodies without mentioning the word fat. People talk about beach and pool bodies as a perfectly acceptable thing.

Kevin

"I would dive into anything with you, Adrian" actually got me a bit parasocially verklempt right at the end there

Samara Yelle

I would love to hear more about highways and parking policy as well.

Kira Hamilton

I’ve been thinking about this a lot lately! I live in Boston and finding good swimming spots is hard … not many public pools are t accessible, and my largely queer and trans friend group prefers the privacy of the outdoor swimming hole but climate change has made those largely unswimmable with bacterial overgrowths.

Kira Hamilton

I have yet to be able to go to Walden pond, ironically, because it’s almost always unsafe to swim in these days.

In Bed With the Right

I mean, one of us is working on an entire book about this, so we can definitely promise that!

Kim

Pools are those things that are classy when the rich have them (inground pools) and trashy when the poor have them (above ground pools). We had a massive municipal pool and two of my neighbors had above ground pools growing up. My parents didn’t believe in pool so we had a sprinkler to run it. It’s a topic that’s so incredibly class and race based, but I never thought of it. Great episode!

Katie

sutro baths! I don’t think I ever knew what they were called- my husband and I visited SF in 2018 and came across what’s left of the baths. We often say to each other “remember that day at land’s end when we walked down to those weird ruins?” Anyway, now I know the name! Thank you!

James Talley

Ever seen the super-clip of In Bruges, where they piece together all the "f-ing Bruges"? I'm going to need one for this episode for all the mentions of "pool" and the refrain can be Adrian saying, like, "fucking palaces."

kathleen

The two pools I went to most as a kid were 1) the one on the air force base where my dad was stationed in the US. It was super fun mayhem. Because the USAF is integrated, so are its public goods. 2) The nearest Hallenbad to the USAF base where we lived in (then) W. Germany. That pool's locker rooms were at least partially co-ed and all-ages. At both, since it was the 80s and we were feral kids, our parents expected us to be polite, follow the rules, and didn't hover. With these as formative experiences, it was weird af to be in private, very white pool spaces later in childhood. It also makes the transpanic bathroom meltdowns look cruel, vicious, AND supremely fucking stupid. All of which is to say, yeah. If you want to keep your social order as it is... don't let people mingle in the swimming baths. They'll just get ideas about how easy it is to live with other people when given the chance.

Krista

I was surprised not to hear about ocean pools, but these seem to be an Australian thing. Who knew! Almost all are free and maintained by local councils. A few are secluded and women only, meaning you get a fun mix of women sunbathing topless, Catholic nuns, Muslim women etc.

Maggie Chambers

I remember my sister showing me a photo from Alabama of a pool that was clearly just filled in with dirt; you could still see the metal handles of the stairs/ladder sticking up from the grass. Rather than segregate, they just closed it.

info@judithflanders.co.uk

Very interesting episode, thank you. One thing I think you overlooked, that complicates (but does not negate) the effects of segregation on the closure of public pools was the 1952 polio epidemic. Because of the faecal/oral transmission, swimming pools were seen as vectors for the disease, and many kept their children home, reducing usage which contributed to the cavalier attitude to closure in the later 50s and 60s with desegregation.

info@judithflanders.co.uk

And linking to your comments about Hampstead Ladies Pond (which, btw, is indeed a natural pond, an outcropping of the underground Fleet River), an anti-trans group is currently gearing up to sue the City of London (managers of the ponds) to force them to make the 'ladies' part mean 'assigned sex at birth'. TransLucent is crowdfunding to fight this action, and if I may, the link to the website is https://www.gofundme.com/f/working-for-the-trans-and-gender-diverse-community.

Brian

Oh man a paved paradise shout out from Adrian? I love finding out that in addition to all the other things Moira calls him a freak for he is also a parking lot freak like me

Brian

Paved paradise, the Henry Grabar book Adrian shouts out, is a great start! I read it about 18 months ago and it led me down a path of research and interest that has become really central to the way I see the world.

West

Appreciate that the "Go to the Pool" trip of #IBWTR was more than just a simple filler episode.

Sarah

I am so stoked because, as an urban planner, I’ve finally read one of the books you cite before I heard about it on the pod!! The Color of Law is such a fantastic read that truly brought tears to my eyes in many parts. Thanks for the fascinating look at pools as public space.

RFB

Thank you for providing the link. What in the actual heck is wrong with people?!

RFB

And now I've worked out why your name sounds familiar - you're sitting on my 'history of crime fiction' bookshelf alongside Lucy Worsley and Martin Edwards. Thank you for that as well 😆

DYNAMITE

When I was 21, I had a gig ferrying a group of refugee girls back and forth to a public swimming pool for swimming lessons. This was in Berlin. The organisation that paid for the lessons had an imam come to the refugee center before and talk with the parents who were worried about their girls being taught by a male swimming instructor, which did calm some parents down. But the old white lady whose ran the organisation insisted that the girls had to wear a swimming suit or a bikini, nothing longer. The girls were all between 11 and 14, which is such a vulnerable age anyway, and some refused the lessons because of this rule. Others acquiesced. I'll never forget one of them - who wore a hijab outside but dutifully donned a bathing suit during the lessons - pointing to a burkini on a poster that the pool had put up (to promote everyone just wearing what they want and leaving others alone, smh) and telling me: "I want one of those! Do you know where I can buy one?" It broke my heart that I had to tell her that she couldn't. Looking back, I regret that I didn't push back against the leader of the organisation harder. She had won several prizes for feminism in her lifetime, but that really stopped short of Muslim women. The idea that she would rather some girls not learn how to swim than stop policing their outfits is so saddening.

Jimjam

Thanks for your kind words re trans people in the UK. It’s exhausting just existing. On a positive note though, I do increasingly see trans/ queer swimming sessions being organised at least in some cities. No idea if new Supreme Court buklshit will make this impossible going forward though- latest EHCR guidance is suggesting it would *discriminatory* to include trans people in women’s or men’s only spaces 🙄🤦🏻‍♂️ ie you could be sued for being inclusive. Yay…

Jimjam

I do remeber as a child my local pool having women’s only swim sessions as quite a large local Muslim population and it just not being a problem as far as I was aware. The only issue I remember was they struggled to have women lifeguards for the sessions. But the hysteric over birkinis and so on was much more of a French thing- probably cos uk is so prudish that the concept of nudity at the beach is treated with horror by most.

testosteronefemme

extremely funny to hear about shifting away from natural bodies of water and towards pools... due to i live in minnesota and lakes and ponds and rivers are literally everywhere. i think having a pool here is extremely rare outside the ymca or whatever. the culture here very much is going to The Lake (which is whatever lake is nearby unless you live in northeastern minnesota). vs growing up in san diego, where the local community pool is a genuine resource if you don't live near the beach (altho, imo, most people just go to the beach). like pools were a more prominent feature of my childhood in san diego, but it's hard to imagine them being so prominent in minnesota. my gf tells me that indoor pools are more or less overflow for when the lakes are too busy bc the weather is really nice, or back ups when you want to swim but it's raining. but yeah the idea of intentionally moving away from bodies of water is wild to me.

Nicole F.

Without going into too many details, The wearing a T-shirt in the pool unlocked about 10% of my body dysmorphia issues so thank you so much for bringing that up. Sincerely.

Chloe Rafferty

Great episode. I live in Australia where pools were definitely a contested site of segregation — we had our own Freedom Ride in 1965 which challenged the unofficial colour bar in rural pools, pubs and other public spaces. I had never really thought about pools in particular being a focal point and that’s made me think about beaches in the Australian context. In Aus it’s more likely to be the beach as a site of racist anxiety — who gets to use it, what they wear, who they interact with etc. Not surprisingly racist riots (Cronulla riot in 2005) have been kicked off over white racists driving people of colour off the beaches. Because of class and racial segregation rich people are more likely to live near beaches so it often takes the form of a white wealthy monoculture hostile to “outsiders” travelling to “their” beaches