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Episode 107 -- Did Women Ruin Everything? (Patreon)

Published:
2025-11-18 04:54:20
Edited:
2025-11-18 04:54:56
Imported:
2026-09

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Content

In this episode, Moira walks Adrian through "The Great Feminization" -- a recent talk/essay that took the right wing by storm, and that subsequently got its author invited to discuss women ruining things in the New York Times. The essay posited that women's entry into the American workforce is to blame for ... wokeness? General societal disorder? The Decline of the West (TM)? Among the topics this episode touches on: the reasons why ideas like these are catching on at this particular moment; the reconceptualization of class distinction through (supposed) gender markers; the history of the "Great Feminization" thesis, and its relationship to "anti-liberal" and other "anti-woke" thinking on the Right.

A few links:

-- Helen Andrews, "The Great Feminization"

-- "Did Liberal Feminism Ruin the Workplace?", Helen Andrews in Conversation with Leah Libresco Sargeant and Ross Douthat

-- Becca Rothfeld's review of Leah Libresco Sargeant's The Dignity of Dependence, which Moira mentioned can be found here.

Comments

Sam Best

We interrupt this regularly scheduled episode of In Bed With the Right to bring you ... If Books Could Kill

James Hultgren

The REEEEAADDDDDD of Helen was fucking incredible ❤️ Thank you for your service.

Z F

Re: "Nobody's ever been more a woman than Marilyn Monroe," there's a biblical-scholarship-for-laypeople podcast called Data Over Dogma, where Dan McClellan has talked about prototype theory - the idea that, psychologically, we don't use definitions when we understand concepts, we have prototypes in mind, and then we group examples around them, and retrofit definitions later. The first time I heard this, I immediately thought of the conservative demand to "define a woman." Like, of course any definition is retrofit. Cognitively, the prototype is Marilyn Monroe, and a woman is someone who is more like her than not

Kim

That whole argument is so deeply offensive, especially as a woman in my almost 50s whom both myself and friends of mine were subject to incredibly aggressive sexual harassment and in some cases assault when we were in our teens and 20s. I would hope things have gotten better or at least that people are more responsive to women’s concerns, but I wouldn’t know because thankfully, I’m in a field surrounded mostly by women and overall sincere male allies.

MWD

The Virtues of Dependence as a title took me back to when I worked in a school and responsible for health class for 7th and 9th graders. A co-worker who was a women my age who never, ever expressed any interest in talking to me started a conversation by saying, "Have you ever read The Return to Modesty?" And what she really wanted was to see if talk about orgasms and that girls can have them in health ed. She thought that was inappropriate and would make girls more likely to have sex and therefore more likely to be abused. I just stared at her sort of in shock. So much that is so wrong. I told her I'm on Dr. Joycelyn Elders' side of this issue. You don't have to have sex with another person to have an orgasm. That was our last conversation.

Sophie

Loved the righteous anger and call-backs to previous themes!

Karen Cox

I have been waiting for this! Thank you! I’m glad you addressed Libresco’s horrible argument as well. She’s not a feminist despite her claims, because she accepts as factual that women just aren’t as tough as men are. She doesn’t use such honest language, however, so she gets more of a pass than she deserves. Her ideas are far more pernicious than Andrews precisely because she’s nicer about how she expresses the toxins.

Karen Cox

It should be noted that Libresco (I refuse to accede to her use of her husband’s last name) is a conservative Catholic, and wants to ban birth control and abortion. That fact alone disqualifies her as any kind of feminist.

Katie

I was wondering where the hell this idea came from- thank you for the context!

William Knight

Listen my own gender identity, I don’t know man, but as someone very much socialized as a dude I will just speak for the Menz here and say the idea that men have conflict in the open and resolve differences quickly is such self deluding male bullshit. Single gender men’s spaces are so full of backbiting and gossip and all the kinds of conflict strategies men (and some women) stereotype as feminine. Generally I have found that bro-ier spaces are worse about this.

William Knight

I have never been on a football team but I have to imagine they are so catty.

Moira Donegan

When women do it we call it gossip, when men do it we call it expertise.

Karen Cox

I’m going to brag on myself ànd note that I commented on the fact that her claim that women can sue over a workplace being a frat house but men can’t sue over his office being a Montessori kindergarten is based on à false equivalence. A kindergarten IS in fact a workplace ànd a frat house is NOT. She’s arguing for men to be able to sue over employers forcing employees to keep their minds on their work. It is not feminists’ fault that shipbuilders cannot demonstrate a connection between porn calendars ànd shipbuilding.

kathleen

And networking! Don't forget networking!

WGM

Im not done, but already feels this episode might be an all-timer. I really appreciate Moira talking at 32 minutes in on the epistemic effects of gender hierarchy. (and really hope it's not that out of fashion because im trying to write about)

William Knight

One thing I remember so clearly about Me Too was older women (like my mom) talking not so much about egregious incidents of abuse but just the constant horrible shit that they put up with every day, and how hopeful they were that was changing.

A Felt

Thank you for tackling this subject, it was very cathartic to hear Moira and Adrian tear apart Andrews’ argument. As a side note, I had no idea that the ACLU were against the plaintiff in that 1991 sexual harassment case. I’m vaguely aware that they have a dubious history when it comes to defending pornography and misogynistic “speech” but didn’t realize it was that bad. I would definitely be interested in a whole episode about that topic.

kathleen

Some ancient texts relevant to monotheistic religions today were all over the women ruined everything thesis a while ago. But sure, attribute it to a bloganon, Helen. Archaeologist Sarah Parcak on Bsky had some choice things to say about the gross assumptions Andrews makes in her piece. (This sloppy ass trope laden thesis wouldn't have made it past the first week of the anthropology of women class I took in 1997. In my experience, students (never mind scholars) now have a much more sophisticated handle on the "universal womanhood y/n?" discussion than we ever did.) (Go little good but not elite liberal arts colleges and underfunded state universities!) Anyway. It's good to see the career Cut Rate Phyllis Schlafly Stan Journalist is thriving? I guess?

Nick

Compact Magazine mentioned…probably niche but I for one would enjoy an episode on What The Hell Happened to Nina Power because that particular trajectory has been *wild*

Sierra Wilson

Thanks for this, y’all. You really laid it out beautifully. Something I’m thinking about lately is the weird nothingness behind conservative projects, the remarkably flimsy arguments. Is it because at least some of these people are atheists who can’t lean on the long history of religious argument of these ideas, so they have to just boldly say this stuff and blame it on “evolutionary psychology” or that they just know they can’t say “well Augustine agrees w me” so they have to be shifty.

Sierra Wilson

This comment brought to you by listening to If Books’ Stephen Pinker “Better Angels” episodes last night and getting mad at the gap between actual history and Pinkers cracked philosophical theories

Nina V~

moira saying, "if it was natural and inevitable, they wouldn't have to work so hard to enforce it," needs, like, an air horn accompanying it

Caroline

I used to work at a steel mill that was probably like 90% male and the rumor mill there was more intense then my sorority was! Some of the guys also had grudges against their coworkers and would refuse to speak to them because they cheated in a softball game in the 90s or whatever. It was pretty toxic but in kind of a interesting way

Erin Mather

"She's one of the good women. One who should be granted an exception from misogyny because of how special, different and exceptional she is. She only hates other women because she can see how much she is unlike them and now, surely, they'll let her into their club of mutual recognition and respect. " - Moira describing the plot of Some Desperate Glory

Moira Donegan

They’re still on the wrong side of this tbh; any time anyone tries to pass a revenge porn or AI porn prevention law the ACLU will file a brief against it, claiming that it would be a free speech violation. I think because of all the good work they do on, eg, trans rights that it’s easy to forget that they’re basically libertarians!

JanaKat

Thank you for mentioning this - I'd known about the defenses of Nazis, but not about any of this stuff. Absolutely nauseating.

Moira Donegan

I took a class on feminist epistemology from the Brooklyn Institute for Social Research back in September that I found really useful; if you shoot me an email I can send you the syllabus! Mdonegan@stanford.edu

Moira Donegan

I’m living for the steel mill gossip

WGM

I would really appreciate that, I'll send an email!

Sarah

Thank you thank you thank you!!! I have been so mad about this article and discourse and this episode was cathartic. ❤️ Also, I just had a lovely long conversation today with a male coworker about his struggles with people pleasing and his natural tendency to avoid conflict (which same). It was a wonderful moment of connection and being seen and a reminder that we (a man and woman at work) are not different at all.

Katie

I straight up cackled like a loon by myself in the car for the last 10 min of the episode. Brilliant. Thank you.

Megan

The parallels you drew between anti-Semitism and sexism were not something I thought of before but, uh, damn. (Signed, a Jewish woman)

nonyadamn

I loved this so much-and Moira YOU are the bomb, closing line was PERFECTION.

Brianna Bertoglio

Moira's physical description of Andrews made me laugh so hard and so unexpectedly while driving. I'm a big believer in not talking about people's appearance, but I understand why this was relevant because of Republican women's aesthetics. So it felt like a real treat to get to laugh about, not in the least because of moira's delivery as she punctuates every detail.

katytron

this was a delicious listen and i so enjoyed you exquisitely ripping these fools apart. *chefs kiss*

Jenny Egg

“Here’s your slop, piggies.” 😆

Maral

One thought that I want to add (as an attorney that represents women with sexual harassment claims against their employers) is that it is definitely true that men sexually harassed women in the workplace because they do not want them there. But sometimes they DO want them there! Because the women being there provides them opportunities to exercise their power in a sexualized fashion. Like little horny opportunities to subordinate people with less power than them.

Maral

*in a sexualized way. So they get their sexual kicks in while they’re at work, and they get to feel a little more powerful as they do it.

Maral

Ok I did voice to text for some of this so it transcribed poorly lol: true that men SEXUALLY HARASS women. Present tense or else I wouldn’t have a job.

Maral

And not that anyone’s arguing but with me about my gendered language but the only instances I’ve come across where men have been victims of sexual harassment is when it’s by other men!

Vivian Cirilano

The note about all-male institutions being inherently practical hit different as I’m reading a history of the East India Company operations in china. Chinese officials prohibited all women from the foreign factories of Canton. The British EIC factors still attempted to foment a war between Britain and China when the Chinese tore out an unauthorized shrubbery in the British factory.

sonorasgirl

I also appreciate the bringing up that in instances where women DO behave in non-confrontational ways, there’s often a lot of societal or relational trauma. Not always, but social conditioning and trauma together can lead to lack of willingness to confront someone because it’s actively dangerous. A lot of women’s fawn responses are due to lack of social, emotional, of physical safety in their past/current lives with being directly confrontational

James Talley

Thank you for sparing me the read/listen of this non-argument I've seen so much dunking on.