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Episode 118 -- The Romantasy Boom (Patreon)

Published:
2026-01-27 06:58:02
Imported:
2026-09

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Content

For this episode, Moira and Adrian are joined by Abby Kluchin from the Ordinary Unhappiness podcast to discuss a recent publishing phenomenon and its implications for gender politics: romantasy, a genre that's been emerging over the last 10 years with renewed force. Series like Sarah J. Maas's A Court of Thorns and Roses and the Empyrian-novels by Rebecca Yarros mix fantasy tropes with costume drama and pretty explicit sex scenes -- and they rely on a very particular kind of trauma heroine, and what seems to be a very particular understanding of gendered trauma.

Comments

Z F

15:10 I think Adrian is thinking of Fifty Shades of Grey here and not Twilight (though Fifty Shades famously started as Twilight fanfiction, so that's an easy mix up to make)

Nina

This is going to be an interesting episode to listen to because personally, romantasy is a genre that always made me feel very bad because it's this genre that is supposed to be wish fulfilment for women and yet the protagonists are always kind of subservient to men, in relationships with very domineering men etc so it always gave me this sad feeling like omg it's fiction everything is possible and I still can't get what I want!

Charlotte

I am a huge genre romance reader - almost exclusively queer historical romance, hit me up if you ever need recs - and have not read a single romantasy, but I get quite defensive of the romance genre overall because it's so commonly dismissed and looked down upon. And it also gets so much entirely genre-illiterate commentary... Anyway, I didn't think you'd do that, of course, but I'm still really impressed and happy with the thought and care and sharp analysis that went into this episode. Thank you!

Charlotte

I totally get that, and I recommend queer romance, including queer m/f romance, instead. (If you want to read romance at all, I mean.)

Tobias Heal

This episode was great, as someone who both isn't the target of romantasy and who hasn't really read any, what struck me the most from the tropes and the plot points being raised from those romantasy stories, it reminds me a lot of a lot of some genres of Anime, and I'd be really interested to know what the timeline and relationship between these two genres are. Did one influence the other or are they both symptoms of underlying trends?

Tobias Heal

I do think that there's a fairly crucial difference between the two though, an awful lot of those anime are explicitly marketed at young men, and they're very much a male power fantasy, despite all of the similar plot points. That's not to say that they can't be enjoyed by people of all genders, a lot of them are, and there are more straightforward examples of romantasy aimed at women within anime as well, but I do think that that kind of anime also answers the question that was raised in the episode of "what if age difference but reversed, wouldn't that be creepy?". The answer to that is the anime trope of "I look like a 12 year old girl but I'm actually a 1000 year old vampire, so it's fine for me to wear such revealing outfits", which somehow manages to be even creepier.

Z F

Love when y'all link up with 'Ordinary Unhappiness'. I'll admit, I was looking forward to hearing someone dunk on these books, but of course you've given me a lot to think about instead

Nicola Fox Hamilton

Ooh - I’d love recs please if you wouldn’t mind? 😄

Nicola Fox Hamilton

I loved this episode - particularly because I read all of the acotar books over Christmas (my first foray into romantasy!) because I was sick and stuck on the couch! It’s great for escapism, and there is definitely something in the predictability of the trope, along with the fun of the fantasy world that I enjoyed. High lit it is not - but it’s comforting in a way. But the episode of course made me look at it in many different ways!

Alice Kron

I feel like this episode is one long polite dunk to anyone who didn't read the books self-consciously 😭

Charley

Not a romantasy reader but this was so interesting. Abby and Moira are two intellectual powerhouses of women I could listen to all day 💜 These lines struck me when they were describing the books: “There are men who appear to be her enemies or threats to her who become her confidantes and lovers.” “He’s reliable and responsible and taking the initiative on birth control.” This is 100% the wish-fulfillment of heterosexually inclined women (like myself). What if men - who can, when we don’t know them, potentially be “threats” - proved themselves not to be? What if they grew up and were actually there to support women in hetero relationships (esp. when there are children, who require so much intensive care and attention)? I cannot tell you how often female friends have bemoaned that they are exhausted by taking on the mental load and “raising children and their partners as well.” (My answer to that is, well, don’t 🤷🏼‍♀️ Refuse to. Demand more from your guy. It’s his kid too.) However, I know it’s not in reality that simple, because our lives are complex and many factors might come into play. It’s clear lots of women have seen their mothers/sisters/friends martyr and sacrifice themselves to men and kids and they genuinely think it’s their lot. It might be annoying, angering and frustrating, but it also gives them some feeling of control. Lots of women even think it’s “feminist” and “strong” to “do it all”. I totally disagree with that - I think the domestic control solution is limited and unhelpful. I am also lucky to have been able to place expections on my husband and have them lived up to, but I do understand why so many women are living and labouring under this misapprehension that it’s just something they must endure. Everything is set up to point to it. These fantasies offer a way out, if only in the imagination.

Nina V~

i haven't yet listened, but i wanted to say thank you for giving me something delightful as i languish in bed with a cold also, as someone who likes both romance and fantasy, i think it's funny that romantasy is Having A Moment NOW, bc i feel like it's previously pretty well-established, genre-wise

Nina V~

i could see some writers seeing the way that anime blends/ incorporates certain elements and wanting to do their own spin on it. also, a lot of these books and series i feel are simply gender-swapped power fantasies. (fwiw, my favorite anime are bleach, gintama, and yoroiden samurai troopers)

Heidi Vee

I would also love to hear your recommendations! I read a lot of queer historical also. :)

Tobias Heal

That's kind of what I thought, in terms of timeline, but in the episode they were also talking about precursors of the romantasy genre co-existing with the late second wave, whereas the kind of anime I was thinking of tend to be more of a 2000s-2010s thing, though it wouldn't surprise me that there are earlier examples. To be totally honest, I haven't watched much anime in a while. I totally agree about the gender swapped power fantasy though, though I don't know to what extent these anime could be considered fiction as therapy, like how Abby described romantasy, but maybe I'm being too jaded, like I say, it's been a while since I've seen any of these

Meg C

Any recs?

Rosie

I genuinely had not realised straight romantasy existed until listening to this. In my mind, romantasy is for the queers! (What, straight people want to monsterfuck too now?) Good to stick my head out of my silo once in a while I guess! Thanks for another great epispde 👍

Rosie

The gender normative element is definitely less of an issue in queer romance! Obviously not perfect, but I find it much easier to find books that are comfort reads without glossing over gender politics. Indie podcast "right here, write queer" is good for discussing queer authoring, often of a cosy fantasy/sci fi/horror/romance persuasion. And then you can look up the guests and read all their books 😇

catalina neacsu

I think the books came out of fanfiction based upon YA books

Nina

I'm Brazilian and there isn't much queer m/f romance in Portuguese, is it different for books in English? There's sapphic romance and I tried that but I find it has its own problems (trying to make the story so unproblematic that there's no conflict)

Nina

I'm happy with this episode because it simultaneously recognizes the conservative elements in these books in terms of gender politics while also analyzing why women like and feel empowered by them and I think it's so hard to find people talking about this subject without either just dismissing them or going the "not liking romantasy is misogyny" route.

A Felt

I was apprehensive about this episode because I have an instinctive defensiveness of romantasy. But I shouldn’t have doubted IBWTR! This episode gave me so much to think about and I’m having to restrain myself from writing multiple essays in the comment section. I am a long time fantasy and romance reader who reviews YA novels for a living, all genres that get lumped together with romantasy and are similarly usually critiqued by people with little context who just want to make easy dunks on the latest thing beloved by women and girls. So I was happy that Moira, Adrian, and Abby took the time to situate these novels in their fictional and social contexts and to ask interesting questions about why they’re so popular with women.

Nevrosiel

Such a great episode. First listen was already awesome ans gave me many points and also made me realise I need to listen a 2nd time because i feel I need to hear again with breaks and a pen & notepad. Thanks so much

Laura

I haven't finished the episode yet, but I'm enjoying it so far. I am a fiction reader, especially fantasy, romance, and romantacy, both queer and straight. But, give me a good non-fiction history and I'm all over that, too. I do agree that romantacy is having a moment. But, I've been reading it for decades now. (As a 45yo I can't tell if I'm older or similar in age to your general listeners.) Another commenter mentioned Tamora Pierce, which I absolutely second. But also, Robin McKinley, Jane Yolen, Diana Wynne Jones, even Piers Anthony. Some of these are YA, but the romantacy is very clearly there. The conservative aspect is absolutely an issue, but there are some incredible queer and feminist romantacy options. Plus, a growing number of racial and ethnic diversity options. And, some of the best inclusion of people with mental, emotional, or physical disabilities as main characters. So, tl;dr, thanks for the great episode, and thanks to the authors who came ahead and built a space for this fun genre.

Leslie Wines

I'll fully admit that I read crappy predictable romantasy as a means of disassociating when the world gets to be too much. On a scale of 1-10, how much will this episode trigger my self loathing?

Leslie Wines

Have you checked out the War of Lost Hearts by Carissa Broadbent? The romance gives a slightly less problematic Daine and Numair vibe but the world building and complex political systems were delightful.

Laura

I haven't! That sounds great! I do love a less problematic Daine & Numair vibe. 😄

Laura

Ss someone who does the same thing. I'm not feeling triggered yet. I'm about 1/2 way through the episode. And, so far everything they talk about hasn't been a surprise.

Rosie

Adrian liked it! So it depends how much you loathe him ;-) They are kind to romantasy readers, and discussion is nuanced and non-judgey

Rachel Henderson

I can’t tell if Adrian is using so many sex terms to describe the non-sex parts of the book on purpose. I keep snickering like a middle schooler.

Kiah Bowers

Are there lesbian versions of this type of thing? I grew up loving Lord of the Rings, Eloise McGraw's The Moorchild, and Tamora Pierce's Tortall books. But as a gay adult I struggle with the...men of adult fantasy, and have no desire to revisit a school setting lol.

Making a Travesty of the Game

My wife and I found that the key to enjoying fourth wing was to imagine Xaden Riorson as a butch lesbian and focus on the dragons of it all, then it's actually quite enjoyable

A Felt

It’s not romantasy but The Locked Tomb series by Tamsyn Muir is a dark fantasy epic set in space with awesome lesbian protagonists that I always recommend.

Emily Furlich

I thought for sure there was going to be a mention of Carol from Pluribus being a romantasy novelist!

Coco

Abby, I think you’re onto something with your universal theory of trauma healing through these books. Can confirm that I went on a romantasy bender when recovering from an intense psychic trauma relationship. In addition to therapy, romantasy was helpful for me in what I might even call “productive escapism” or something like that. I was well aware while reading many romantasy series that the strong female lead discovering her own power was both attractive and helpful in my healing process. Also +1 to it taking men 500 years to learn how to buy milk at the grocery store. 🤣

Kelsey

I went to college with Sarah J. Maas. I did not know her even though it was a very small school, but I use this fact to gain currency with my Gen Z female students and it is very effective.

Charlotte

I love Gideon the Ninth (the first book in the Locked Tomb series), but I think it's worth noting in this context that while it has a romantic subplot, it's not a genre romance!

Charlotte

Of course! My favourite queer historical romances are: 1) basically everything by KJ Charles. Imo particular great: The Will Darling Adventures, a trilogy about the same couple with trappings of early 20th century pulp fiction. For the fantasy element, go with The Magpie Lord and its two sequels, also a trilogy about the same couple. 2) The Old Bridge Inn series by Annick Trent. These are all working class romances, which is rather unusual in historical romance.

paul bowman

a lovely crossover, thank you

Lauren Steward

As a continuation into exploring how gender shows up in what we read, it would be great to see an episode on Fanfiction. Many people within the comments have brought it up as the origins of many famous romance and romantasy books. It would be interesting to hear y’all’s insight as fanfiction is known to be both very queer and girlish. This is coming from a fanfic lover who gets many comments from guys about how it is just smut and nothing of substance.

A Felt

Yes it’s definitely not a romance! Thank you for the correction, I didn’t do a very good job of clarifying

L D

Here's a little bit of background about SJ Maas that I think contributes a lot to why her writing feels like it does. In 2000, when my family got the internet, I joined this fairly large writing community on a website called Fictionpress.net. It was the sister site to Fanfiction.net, but for original works (god help you if you put fan fiction up on FictionPress.net). SJ Maas was one of us. The fantasy section of the site felt at the time like it was mostly middle class and up afab* kids who had read some seminal texts - Lord of the Rings, Tamora Pierce's Alanna books (ugh), Robin Mckinely, the Pern books, Anne Rice, a little Jane Austen, probably the Avalon books Moira cited, various anime books, maybe some Clan of the Cave Bear, plus been raised on 1990s Disney. Generally people in that community were really aware of gender roles, probably because we were having to grapple with it day in and day out as teen girls in the 90's/00's. It was also pretty horny, again, teen girls. The plots had lots of forced marriages, lots of young women having to fight for survival but ultimately triumphing, lots of violent male villains, and lots of sex. People were really working through some stuff. I also think for a lot of us the escapism of fantasy was helpful in getting through teenagehood. For me it sure was, at the time I was a trans guy going through female puberty. I'm sure I wasn't the only one. I think this point Abby makes about processing trauma through escapism is absolutely correct. (My FP story? A girl who, disguised as a boy, passes the rites of manhood for her people, and then has to flee into the unknown because her people try to kill her when she triumphantly unmasks herself. Talk about on the nose.) It was very collaborative, we were all reviewing each other's work through a feature in the website. Generally people left pretty positive feedback. I avidly read Throne of Glass as SJ Maas posted it (she was a super regular poster) and told her how badass the assassin main character was. When, as an adult, I found it in book form and realized where I had read it before, I sent her an email through her site congratulating her on getting published. She wrote me back saying she loved hearing from Fictionpress folks. Delightful. So to Adrian's point about it feeling like YA fantasy- I would say not only is YA fantasy a precursor to this genre, but a lot of authors probably learned to write it from reading YA fantasy themselves. YA fantasy also has a fair amount of romance in it, it's just not super graphic. Moira's point about the 80's feminist fantasy influence is also spot on.

kathleen

Stg half the reason hot hockey guys smooching fiction is appealing to straight women is because its answer to "what age do men have to be to grow up?" Is "they have to be queer years old." Or "they have to be I'm cheering you on but thank god you're not my actual problem, hey nice accent" years old. Thanks for this fun, thoughtful episode. Thinking about meaningful yet lowstakes stuff is restorative in this INSANE time.

kathleen

Can I sneak in and suggest Cat Sebastian's mid century NYC novels? We Could Be So Good is a delight. I also love her novella Luke and Billy Finally Get a Clue. I love the Will Darling stories. I'm so glad you shout them out!

Z F

I can't speak for others, but my favorite fanfiction is just smut and I don't think that's a problem

Lauren Steward

It’s not a problem. I just get frustrated when it’s written off as just one thing. Fanfic can be anything and I think that’s the beautiful part of it.

Leslie Wines

Ok I finished the episode and I should have trusted Moira and Adrian! It was a delightful listen!

Heidi Vee

Yes, love KJ Charles! I reread The Doomsday Books all the time

Geneva Samuelson

As someone who was a junior in high school in 2020 and is now a master’s student, going to class while the world is burning around you does not feel escapist lol

Darkbriar

There is an example of flip genders though when it comes to age gap and it's Lord of the rings. Aragorn and his lovely lady love they are so far apart in age she is so much older than him and everyone just accepts it. And despite that age gap it is considered a work of real fiction, of greater fantasy and not just simply written off as fiction for women.

Murphy

In very popular, Pluribus the main character is a conflicted author of what I believe would fall into this genre, somewhat, if maybe just straight romance? Spoiler, there was a conversation where she is talking about writing another book, and her assigned chaperone gets very exited in the prospect of a new book. I was hoping they will be exploring the idea of art in a society that has universal knowledge in season 2. The conflict Carol has of changing the gender on her character to please the audience is mentioned too. Carol is not overly respectful of her audience, that is mostly very enthusiastic women, who look for those Easter eggs. Anyway, I thought it was an interesting choice of a profession for a lead Lesbian woman in a sci-fi..

SHH

I was actually surprised they didn’t mention growing sub-genre of sapphic fantasy in the ep! The Burning Kingdoms trilogy by Tasha Suri may not be all the way to romantasy, but certainly centers queer romance, and her latest stand-alone The Isle of the Silver Sea was billed as sapphic romantasy. Priory of the Orange Tree (a tome!) similarly has a central WLW romance. I have not read any straight romantasy, so am unsure how any of this compares haha. I usually look at Autostraddle’s list of monthly book releases, and queer romantasy is popping up pretty often, if you are looking to grow a reading list. AK Larkwood’s The Serpent Gates duology is also great, but again has a central romance vs romantasy. Cannot recommend The Locked Tomb series enough for queer sci-fi/fantasy!

Bruce

To quote the inimitable Moira Donegan, "Nerds are a horny group of people."

Bruce

I’d really like to hear Moira & Adrian response to reading Yarros as the writing is probably worse but the tropes do seem more “modern”—the love triangles resolve cleanly, promiscuous sex is fairly standard for both men and women, the government is corrupt and lying to you. And, on the complete opposite end of the dragon fantasy spectrum, I’d love to hear them talk about “Dealing with Dragons”—elder millennial YA in which a princess runs away to be a dragon’s librarian.

Bruce

Fourth Wing was recommended to me by my very straight adult nieces.

Charlotte

Oh, I do love Cat Sebastian, too!

Bruce

Ruin of Angels by Max Gladstone has multiple lesbian romances going on. And has one of my favorite lines: “But a Knight may rescue her lady from a tower. That is practically what Knights are for.” (It’s not Romance literature though; it’s part of a multi-book series exploring modernity through a “faith-punk” lens. *Lots and lots* of queer characters. The first cis-man with more than a couple lines doesn’t show up until ~1/3 into Ruin and the lead character is trans).

Chris Lutsko

I'd love to hear y'all talk about people who use male and female in everyday life 🤢 more! I've always been so icked out by it but I don't know why

kathleen

Yessss she's been going from strength to strength!

Maral

I read both ACOTAR, first few books like a decade ago, and then recently read fourth wing. I’ve read a lot of romantasy before the big wave, and…idk. I agree with the potential for healing and empowerment angle! I think it can be a good early step for women who havent done a lot of the work yet of deconstructing their internalized conceptions of gender. I’m glad you guys had some criticisms of the gender conventions at play, though I do think THAT is part of why they’re so popular…because they’re kind of conservative). But I also wish you’d touched on the way race and ethnicity come into these books, especially ACOTAR. It’s bad! It’s very bad and relies on shitty racial tropes. Fourth wing had bad, shoe-horned queer representation, and in the second book they introduce a female character that’s the most stereotypical “other woman” threat—she’s dark haired, beautiful, catty (I think literally named cat or something?) and competes with the main female character for the main male characters’ affections. I think overall these books do SOME good, but I think ultimately they’re shitty insofar as they romanticize and reinforce harmful racial and gender stereotypes. They just feel many steps behind where I would want us to be.

Maral

And there are some better authors out there writing romantasy. Not many. I think Courtney Milan does great politically conscious historical romance. Ruby Dixon does really good campy scifi romance and fantasy romance, where she absolutely leans on shitty tropes but at least in a silly, campy, self-aware way whereas these books feel a lot more self-serious.

Liv

I enjoyed this episode and appreciate all the critiques. I do wish the misogynistic language used towards the writers of these books is used. but in general these books are consistently talked about as lesser, and other fantasy books which heavily rely on similar romance tropes written by men are somehow superior fantasy texts. I’m not specifically talking about the books mentioned in this episode but there are many other “romantasy” authors who deliver good books and are put down due to outlook on women overall and what women like.

Gwendolyn Werdin

Wow. I would have fit right in, but somehow did not know about this site. I was loading up fandom specific archives with bonkers stuff, though. Anyway, this is super good context.

Jenny Egg

As a huge romance reader, I love that we’re having more serious, nuanced conversations about romantasy and its political implications. If others are interested in exploring this topic further, you might want to check out these 2 video essays! Princess Weekes has a new video called “Romantasy, BookTok & Critical Thinking,” about the conservative impulses in romantasy writing, and ContraPoints has a killer video essay on “Twilight” that spans the history of shitting on women’s writing, psychoanalysis, and religion.

Johnny

big disclaimer that i have had zero interaction with romantasy, but i spent several years reading a lot of fanfiction, which has significant tropic overlap w romantasy, so, on the topic of fated mates: i think part of the appeal is that it frames romantic love as something absolute and eternal, and something that exists beyond-before the agency (or even the immediate desire) of the characters. in formulating a deterministic model of romantic love, it precludes the possibility of doubt, and preemptively assures the characters that no relationship problems will ever challenge the ultimate positive value of the relationship. i also think it serves one of what i’d consider one of the essential appeals of this kind of narrative, which is to identify the audience-surrogate as valuable and worthy of love. not only can you trust that your fated mate will never leave you, that any problems you encounter are ultimately both worth it and surmountable, but you also can trust that they will never love anyone more than you. to be identified as someone’s one true love is to be affirmed of your value in absolute terms.

Sierra Wilson

Since nobody else has recc’d, read This is How You Lose the Time War by Amal El-Mohtar and Max Gladstone! A sci fi/fantasy novella about enemy agents n a time war falling in love

Leo Paniagua

51:32 - the first shadow daddy I can think of in the sequence (im an archaeology student lol) is the one in Leigh Bardugo's shadow and bone, 2012. Actually, I think it's a pretty direct cultural predecessor for the 2020s romantacy movement, its another battle school makeover he should be her enemy she has light powers he has dark powers he's a grisha (sorceror headass) million years old summoning shadows and darkness big political leader type thing.

Shale

Diana Gabaldon books are so worth it despite their length. I think she’s an amazing author and an amazing researcher. ACOTAR… DNFed by the third book. The writing just gets worse and worse.

Shale

(Embarrassing aside to say I love ruby Dixon’s ice planet barbarian sci fi smut romance universe)

Stephanie

I would love to see an episode about Heated Rivalry!

Anna Ploegman

I see recommendations for the Contrapoints Twilight video, which is great, but is, of course, not really *about* Twilight. A much more direct response to Twilight is the video essay by Morbid Zoo. Obviously they are flawed books, but I think the boiled down "Edward is an abuser" thing is... not exactly correct.

Leo Paniagua

Don't remember if i commented this already but a slightly earlier and definitely influential iteration of the shadow daddy comes from Leigh Bardugo's Shadow and Bone, which i feel like really cemented a lot of shaddy (shadow daddy) and other romantasy tropes in the 2010s.

testosteronefemme

i must say. as someone who primarily reads fanfic when i want the comfort of formula and only occasionally romantasy (which i refuse to read unless it's queer): 1. the formulaicness of the genre to me actually reads more like AO3 tags. to the point that it's kind of jarring to see tropes listed on the back of the book, like. get back to AO3 where you belong. 2. this is a function that is served very well by fanfiction, which is why it makes sense that so many of these are AO3 stories with the serial numbers filed off. the thing about fic is that it's a) wish fulfillment (whether rolling around in the coffee shop AU or unfucking the end of the show or messing with the stuff we don't see), and, sometimes, can really fuck (not easily conquered comes to mind as an absolute banger of a series, from a writing perspective, not just the typical AO3 fare) but also b) familiar. you don't have to fuck around with introducing characters, you can just dive right into the story without the irritation of figuring out whether or not you're into the characters or dynamics (why i suspect publishing is now printing the ao3 genre tags on the books 💀), you just get right to the porn or the plot. which is nice when you're tired and it's been a long day and you're not trying to test your brain. i'm less familiar with bodice rippers directly, i know fanfiction borrows *a lot* from the genre, but i kind of feel like with romantasy i'm watching like. a double integral of these two lineages lol. also. when will IBWTR investigate the gender politics of omegaverse and fandom behaviors writ large i think it would be so fun.

testosteronefemme

oh this is a really interesting thought. i'm not much of an anime consumer, so to me romantasy is just extremely legibly AO3 but published. but given that many of these stories start out as fic, and the migratory slash-fandom nature of many fic authors, i wouldn't be surprised if there's a sizeable anime influence being incorporated in through the fanfic aspect of it all.

testosteronefemme

why do i think omegaverse is such an interesting genre specifically? bc it's extremely gender regressive while often still functioning either a) as wish fulfillment for like triumph over gendered norms or b) a place to ask questions about like. even if all of the naturalized gender propaganda is true, what ethics are or should be at play, what would society look like etc etc.

testosteronefemme

the abyss surrounds us is more YA - its not got the overt sex of something like a strange stubborn endurance but it is overtly sapphic sci fi!!

testosteronefemme

i have thought a lot about how the true mate wish fulfillment style tropes (or even arranged marriage that somehow works out) are in essence, the fantasy of Not Dating On The Apps. which... honestly seems reasonable.

testosteronefemme

also now that im thinking more about this: the absolute brutality that romantasy protagonists go through actually reminds me of supernatural. the thing abt spn is that it's a bodice ripper for men, or at least started that way (the things Supernatural has to say about The Family... are dire), and in order to reasonably cry, it's not when your dad dies it's when you go to hell for 40y and you eventually start torturing other people and your failure to Be A Man about it causes the apocalypse. see also: being trapped with lucifer for 100y etc. like the brutality has to be almost cartoonish in order to justify men crying, bc Eric Kripke thought it was effeminate for Dean & Sam to use umbrellas while it's raining. but it's notable that Spn got 15 seasons starting in the 00s while SJ Maas others are really only getting their due now. in book form, which is much lower budget to produce than a TV show.

Johnny

oh i LOVE this take!! i also wonder if, in this context, the apps are coded as Modernity such that the Past-ness and regressive nature of arranged marriage actually become part of the fantasy!